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17 thoughts on “A Wonderful Surprise”
“we should be open and attentive to anything that our kids might generate for our classes. “
Ownership. If the learner owns the learning, the teacher stops being such the sage on the stage, steps back toward 20%, and the learner can fill the 80% vacuum. I’m really into what Michele and Jim are doing with learner owned learnings and learner produced materials. Haha, let them do all the work. =) Give them ownership.
Ben this is such a cool blog post. I’ve heard plenty about how people don’t want to learn and I don’t want to believe it. John Taylor Gatto gets people learning because he gets them involved and owning their learning. A most basic human instinct, deeper than appearing cool, is the want and need to learn. We all say that the Educational Institution teaches people not to want to learn. Horse puckey. People just don’t want old outdated lies. Deep down, we love to learn. We just wanna learn what’s really useful and true.
The fact that the learner you cite above voluntarily *memorized* and *output* and owned a bunch of useful French truly proves it. And the fact you let it happen is way cool. Pop a cork! Obviously there’ll be many if not most that’ll play aloof and disruptive and anti-Institution. Yawn. They’ll never lead the way out. But there are some, I’ve seen ’em in your room, who want to learn and do things to get what they want. Let them lead the way. Give’em their 80%. Let’em outfun the yawners.
I truly believe that everyone wants to learn. They just don’t want all to be schooled.
with love,
Laurie
I don’t think that’s “horse puckey” Duke. I think that the “Education Institution” most certainly does teach many people to not want to learn [the stuff we’re payed to teach them]. But some no, usually the ones who are told they are “good” at learning.
I think Laurie hit it right on the head with those two sentences above.
We are at risk of losing our jobs (not that that’s the end-all-be-all of the argument, but…) if we give the class 80%, especially in lower level language classes. There is a defined space, a defined time, with defined institutional rules we must enforce and a grading/classing system we must apply. I don’t think any of those help create a natural or desirable learning environment to begin with. But then tell 20 or 30 (or more) kids they can be responsible for 80% of their own learning, IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, when they don’t even have a base of the language yet, and we will have a zoo (and probably not an L2-friendly one). Yes, there are some who would choose to learn during that slice of time from the rigor pie, but I agree with Ben as he said in another post, the “Thuggs” will probably stifle that (in our confined settings).
I may be mistaken, but I think Gatto’s success as a school teacher lied in getting the kids OUT of the classroom, sending them on missions of their own creation. He was able to do this mainly because he subverted the institution to get it done.
This morning my teacher asked us if any of us wanted to try this new way to learn Spanish or whatever with songs. She said said we could maybe learn really fast, and asked if any of us wanted to try it. Someone said sure, ok fine, but what’s the catch?
Homework. she said we gotta do homework. Well that sucks. But then she said it might be worth a try, and if we do it, we maybe can be like fluent, no, she said “fluid” in like a year.
She asked us how would it feel if we could talk Spanish in a year? Like could we even imagine ourselves flirting in Spanish and feeling ok talking about whatever in Spanish? Not like perfect or super fast, but like slow and sure.
Like basically being able to say the basics, ask all the good questions and understand when people talk real slow and simple. Sounds cool. And the songs thing sounds pretty cool. And Shakira’s pretty hot.
She also said if we try it, we might be able to get really good pronunciation from the get go. Like for starters.
So we asked about the homework thing. (I’ve been wondering why there’s no homework in this class. My mom asked me about it again at dinner tonight and rolled her eyes.)
My teacher, she said it’s not really homework, like you don’t have to study some text book and get quizzed and worry all about flunking. It’s more like a practice, she kept saying, “practice.”
You only do it if you want to. she said this isn’t about grades, it’s a whole different kind of test. It’s if we wanna see if we can learn a language faster with this “practice” thing and the songs.
She said the idea is you can learn Spanish really fast if you really like it, and asked us if we wanted to try things to see if we could like Spanish more.
If we really like songs, she said, there are some habits we can practice that are easy, and we could be practicing all day long, but only just a few minutes here and there. But all day long, so they add up.
The idea she said was to get the lyrics going on inside your head all day long, sorta in the background or something, and you do it just by memorizing tons of songs and lyrics you really like.
Like you could sing loud or quiet or silent throughout the day alone or with friends and be learning Spanish really fast and liking it.
Then she said we’re outta time, if anyone wanted, they should come up after class and find out more. So I did and so did a few other kids and she gave us this paper. It said if you wanna talk Spanish in year, do this:
1. find songs in spanish you like
2. listen to them a lot
3. see what the words say
4. find a song you love
5. memorize it
6. listen to its lyrics spoken SLOW
7. mimic all the sounds
8. get good at saying all the words
9. listen to different artists do the song
10. talk about the songs, (in spanish, doh)
11. tell me how you like it (ditto)
12. repeat with 51 more songs, one a week
Me and my friends we talked about it little, then made these really cool paper airplanes, haha. But then I got to thinking, what if I *could* learn a language in a year? I’m 16.. how many languages could I learn in my life if it only takes a year? How many more friends would I make? And the songs thing. I really like songs. Hmmm.
I love that set of directions, Duke! And for Ben, I have to tell you about a class that almost mutinied on me today because I was going to make them read P.A. (I did, but that’s not what I want to talk about here.) Their comments were that they like reading what they have written. They like doing illustrations for their own stories. They like coming up with their own needs of what to say. They like choosing the songs that they will sing and talking about the artists and the people in the songs. They like, in essense, running the class. They feel that they have been running the class, until they have to read PA.
Michele,
What is PA?
Thanks,
Caryn
Duke , how does this student spend her class time? What is the environment you are envisioning, within our current settings? Perhaps you are seeing something I am not.
Jim, Carla has a cool little activity to try testing a little more student ownership in the classroom and maybe fun early output. FEO! haha. And when I say 80% I’m referring to what Michele is describing. Not pandemonium. Michele, what’s the secret recipe?
Oh, and Jim, especially for you, here’s another possible activity to test more student ownership: Sr. Mariano Yeh Can, Maestro de Inglés en Playa Del Carmen, Q.Roo, México quiere investigar un Skype Exchange entre su clase Inglés 2 y tu clase Spanish 2. Cuando? El Miércoles, 10 de Noviembre, de 9:30 AM de la mañana hasta las 10. La clase del Maestro Yeh Can cuenta con 40 alumnos, edades 13 a 15 años. Con ganas, todo se puede.
Caryn, sorry…PA is Poor Anna, the first of Blaine’s novels.
Duke, I think that the “recipe,” which has been getting really strong in this one group of kids, comes at least in part from our discussion about twexting last year, after which I decided to assign kids to find one Russian song they liked. I had such a rich supply that I didn’t need to look for songs on my own, and there are rarely any complaints about songs if it’s the kids themselves providing them, The songs provide all the HF structures we need in the language. We use a few structures from each song to generate stories. Then we come back to the song to discuss it and tell the story and talk about the artist, sometimes reading websites about the artists.
The next part was the students writing the “skeleton” stories, or “student scripts,” or whatever we decided to call them. They only get to do that when we can’t get a story to move or when I need a two-minute break, but I guess they think they always write them.
Following stories, we do the writing of the stories as a class (during which time we may do grammar or discussions). The stories go up on the class website and into their notebooks. Then we (sometimes) do a printout of stories so that kids illustrate them, and those become part of the book collection.
This group likes to tell me when they need to write more. They like to dictate when they want to read more, and they also come in with full-blown stories that they want to tell and then we elaborate on those stories. They also elaborate on the class stories, or embellish the level 1 stories.
It is not a first-year class, though you might think so because we’re reading PA. (It’s relatively hard in Russian. I can say that, having read it in Spanish myself after only three days of Blaine.) Actually, the more advanced kids refused to help the level 2’s read it, citing extreme exhaustion and overuse of PA. Instead, they each took a chapter and were supposed to sum it up with 2 illustrations and captions. I had visions of posting them in the room, but now I think I’ll have a little hallway art exhibit…they’re pretty funny.
I guess these kids have kind of taken over the class…I do grade them on notebooks and writing and quizzes and speaking. But I am realizing from writing this response…oops…that I have actually not come up with the content for most of first quarter.
Michele, any secrets in getting the kids to search for their “own” songs? For some reason, my students act enthused about this, but then NEVER end up bringing in any new songs. Maybe they are very content with the ones I pick, but I think they would be more into it if they have chosen the songs themselves. I have told them this.
I just use the twexted ones Duke has gathered. They are always high interest and rarely contain inappropriate material. That is because the songs are usually over twenty years old. Stuff sung by Françoise Hardy, Eartha Kitt, Carla Bruni. Whenever I ask kids to go get songs they come back with stuff I can’t use for a ton of reasons.
Michele that group you are describing represents where TPRS is going. As we get better at it, as our students get better at it, we will see positive heated discussions with our students about what they need. I had one yesterday with a couple of level 2 superstars who want a reading group for them only because I go “too slow” for them in stories now (other “slower” kids are starting to “slow down” the class). I will start ability level grouping for reading on Monday and see where that goes.
(I don’t agree with the idea that we should go slowly for new kids into the classroom who have not had TPRS or are slow decoders. I have been told to do that, always teach to the slowest kid, the assumption being that it won’t hurt the faster kids to hear the language. I’m talking about level 2 kids here, not level 1 kids. It does hurt them because they get so bored when I do that and they get bitchy edges. I seriously disagree with the idea of multileveled classrooms, with beginners in the room with fourth year students. If it was going to work it would have worked by now – there have been some pretty strong teachers experimenting with it for awhile now and I haven’t heard anything good about it.)
But back to your point Michele – last week was a very different one than any I have had with the CI approach because the kids, in three separate instances, all level one kids, seem to be more and more comfortable and playful. I have already described one of those instances in the blog entry above, but there are two more I will try to write about as soon as I can. They are unique and new in my experience and they came from kids spontaneously. The kid described in the post above is exactly where Duke is going with all this – that’s why he started commenting so much on this lately – his vision is finally coming out of the box where we can see it.
Duke’s vision is kids learning languages from each other and from songs and from the internet because they want to. And now you say that your kids are telling you what they need – more writing in the comment you made above. They take ownership of the songs. They decide they don’t want anything to do with PA. They perceive themselves as the creators of the story because you gave them that time at the beginning of class to come up with a group/student generated story script.
All of what you been doing ever since Jenny came down here last year, right about that time it seems like to me, you guys up there have been pointing to the (actually rather novel except for Duke) concept of student ownership of the class.
I disagree with Duke that all of his ideas can work in a classroom, but it doesn’t matter. What matters is that through you and Duke we are seeing the same movement into a deeper kind of personalization in TPRS, a more sophisticated one in which the teacher doesn’t have to bear the burden of the “personalizer”.
In this case, which Duke calls the 80%/20% rule where the kids do most of the work, the teacher is less active, the kids create their own personalization because it is their ballpark, and the learning flows from them. I know that this idea has merit because whenever I think about it I get pissed off. That’s the control freak in me – Corky – objecting to the idea that teaching could be totally relaxed and totally fun for real and not just a mental exercise in letting go of control.
Your class, that one class you describe above, is just the beginning of this new wave into kid controlled learning. The fine points of to what extent that can actually be done are in the argument phase now, but in the end, Duke and his ideas of learning a language by memorizing a song and learning to say things by playing with sound and learning how to flirt in the language and only do stuff that is fun will be commonly done.
It’s all about giving permission to the kids to play. We don’t have to be the masters of ceremonies of play anymore. The kids don’t even want that from us. That is why Duke has been banging Corky over the head these past few days in private emails, and he is 100% correct. It’s all about giving up control, but for real. The TPRS world has a ton of stuff to learn from Duke, if they could but see it. See also:
https://benslavic.com/blog/?p=6624
Ben, did I mention that I have ability-level reading groups in my mixed classes? That helps a lot. Even if we’re reading the same stuff, they like to be in the mixed groups. The kids put themselves into the right groups. I don’t assign them.
Jim, I don’t usually assign specific homework. But when I assign the song homework, it is for a grade that counts. They have to send me a link to where I can hear the song, the complete lyrics, and they have to put the lyrics through Google translate and then fix the mistakes as best they can. All of that has to be in one e-mail. That way I don’t get any obvious obscenities right off the bat, and also I can look at their translations to see whether they did anything with the google stuff. It’s the only time they’re allowed to use an on-line translator, and it really helps them to see what garbage they can get (as a secondary benefit to this whole exercise).
Now that they know that I will not only count it, but that I’ll use the song, they are a lot more careful to pick songs that they can defend. The first time, I just got dumb stuff.
EEK…(Michele, read what you type before hitting “submit.”
I got about 1/3 dumb stuff from a class with a bunch of kids that didn’t want to participate. Man, were they embarrassed when I played the old-lady, warbly songs they had taken off the top of some list. Everyone else had these interesting songs, but they…they were justifying their choices as “whatever” and trying to act cool.
Diane, Carla, sorry to mix up. Carla is slowing down audacity files so learners can hear the sounds easier. Diane gets learners in pairs to practice saying useful phrases and have fun with the sounds. Right? Both great practices.
Diane, the the activity you describe sounds like que podría ser bilingue, que no? Jim, we get this skype exchange exchanging y quien sabrá que será? El jugar con los sonidos, is it worth a try?
To prep, we can get more bilingual songs, like El Bilingue and Before the Next Teardrop Falls and Hey Baby, Que Pasó?. Request: please send forth any bilingual songs for playlist. Las clases de Jim Tripp and Mariano Yeh Can can use a good playlist of bilingual songs next week, before wednesday nov 10, 9:30 am skype exchange, now confirmed 🙂 Thanks!
Diane, Carla, sorry to mix up. Carla is slowing down audacity files so learners can hear the sounds easier. Diane gets learners in pairs to practice saying useful phrases and have fun with the sounds. Right? Both great practices.
Diane, the the activity you describe sounds like que podría ser bilingue, que no? Jim, we get this skype exchange exchanging y quien sabrá que será? El jugar con los sonidos, is it worth a try?
To prep, we can get more bilingual songs, like El Bilingue and Before the Next Teardrop Falls and Hey Baby, Que Pasó?. Request: please send forth any bilingual songs for playlist. Las clases de Jim Tripp and Mariano Yeh Can can use a good playlist of bilingual songs next week, before wednesday nov 10, 9:30 am skype exchange, now confirmed 🙂 Thanks!
Yeah, I’m pretty excited to see how that goes Duke. I’m thinking about songs…
Michele, I think you are right, if I want the kids to do something that I think will greatly benefit the class, like them finding songs on their own that they like (even though as you say that’s not 100% surefire, as some kids will still stiff it) I need to grade it. I have been realizing the same thing with illustrations for stories. I want them back soon, so we can use them for the class, but without a deadline and grade, they rarely get it done on time if at all. Two things worth grading in my opinion, given our situations. Thanks Michele!